Typical NT-AS confusing conversation

Does this seem familiar to AS peeps?

Conversation started today
Aspie-girl's niece
10:05am

 

Aspie-girl's niece
Thoughts? X

Aspie-girl
12:32pm
I'm not sure why you've sent me this...?

Aspie-girl's niece
6:11pm
No idea why whatsoever? I was asking your thoughts regarding this popular photo posted by B's peer?

(B is my 12 year old daughter - the girl in the picture is 16)

Aspie-girl
6:11pm
I have no thoughts.

Aspie-girl's niece
6:15pm
I cannot tell if you are being deliberately obtuse?

Aspie-girl
6:22pm
I don't know what you want me to say.
Okay - these are my thoughts. 1) this girl is several years older than B. 2) I think the picture is very pretty and quite artistic 3) I was struggling to figure out what you were objecting to, but I assume it is the fact that she is showing her bare shoulders and the tiniest amount of cleavage, and my thought there is that you yourself have shown far more revealing pictures, and so have I 4) she is not my daughter, nor is she yours, so i don't see what business it is of either of us.
And I didn't have any of those thoughts until you drew my attention to it.

Aspie-girl
6:23pm
And remember, I have AS so not so good with the non-verbal communication here. If you were getting at something else please tell me.

Aspie-girl's niece
6:42pm
Wotevs. U have just demonstrated that you knew what I was alluding to. Would have been probably easier and friendlier just to say that u weren't concerned...?

Aspie-girl
6:43pm
I thought I did.

Aspie-girl's niece
6:43pm
No.

Aspie-girl
6:43pm
But it didn't occur to me till you pointed out, and I had to think hard as to what your possible objection might have been. And I still wasnt sure I was right.
Might have been easier if you'd just said it.
So, are you actually expecting me to do anything about your concerns?

Aspie-girl's niece
6:46pm
No.

Aspie-girl
6:46pm
okay then. So why bring it up?
Remember I can't read your mind, especially over message. This tends to be the point in conversation where people start to get annoyed with me, leaving me sat here totally confused.
And they don't tend to explain themselves, so I am left none the wiser.
AS - remember.
(Later) And yet one more who doesn't explain.

Aspie-girl's niece
6:56pm
You have asked me why I brought it up and yet my intentions were clear from the outset. I simply asked you your thoughts. You provided them.

Aspie-girl
6:58pm
Honestly your intentions were not clear - you may have thought they were, but they weren't. I still don't know why you brought it up, if you didn't expect me to do anything about it.

Aspie-girl's niece
7:03pm
I just told you. I brought it up because I wanted to know what you thought. That is all. There is nothing more to be read into it. Do AS ppl often overanalyse others intentions? I was concerned. I wanted to know if you were concerned. It is the same as asking someone if they enjoy music or the taste of cake?

Aspie-girl
7:08pm
Ok - this is the convo from my POV. You sent me a random pic and asked me my thoughts. I told you I had no thoughts, which was perfectly true. You accused me of being deliberately obtuse, which often happens so I figured I was missing something. I tried to think of some thoughts for you. You did not seem happy with my thoughts. I have since spent the rest of the convo trying to figure out your original intentions, and why you are not happy.
To answer your question, I think AS people often struggle to understand what people's intentions actually ARE, especially as NT people (non-autistics) don't tend to be overt with their intentions, as they assume they are obvious, which they probably are to other NT people.
You didn't actually ask me if I was concerned, you asked me what my thoughts were, and I didn't have any. If you had said "Are you concerned about this picture," I would have answered "No." which would have sparked off a whole different conversation.

Aspie-girl's niece
7:18pm
I was not being vague when I asked for your thoughts. And I am sure that whether you have as or not you are intelligent enough to reason that I meant your considered thoughts. I am unclear why you are asking me to explain my frustrations as I don't know if you are willing or indeed able take this knowledge into account in future social encounters. Regardless I hav laid out my reasoning as best as I as an NT am able.

Aspie-girl
7:26pm
So, basically, you were concerned by the minimal amount of skin this girl was showing, but you didn't want me to do anything about it, and you wanted to know if I was concerned also, but even if I had been concerned, you didn't expect me to do anything about it. Is that about right? Because that's all I've got from this conversation. Seems pretty pointless.
Honestly, I don't mean to offend, but I'm going to put this encounter into the big mental pile that's labelled "I don't get it."
FTR, the last conversation I had with your mother is in there also.
See, this is where having AS is a massive disadvantage. For the most part, we can appear normal, but now and again we just really don't get it. And people don't understand that we don't get it because, for the most part, we appear normal. So the assumption is that we MUST get it and we are somehow pretending not to get it. And then when you ask people to explain, they just go "Whatevs" and don't bother, because they assume that you actually do get it and are just pretending not to.
This is a problem that DH and I had a lot before I got diagnosed but thankfully he is finally understanding that if I say I don't get it, I REALLY don't get it and he has to be patient with me and explain.

Aspie-girl's Dad
7:26pm
In a nutshell and I think that K would agree with this, we were simply concerned that one of B's FB 'friends' was apparently posting a pic which was bordering on child  'soft porn'.

Aspie-girl
7:27pm
But, to what end?
And I don't see it myself. I think it is pretty.

Aspie-girl's Dad
7:30pm
Well even some of this young lady's friends thought it was a bit OTT.

Aspie-girl
7:30pm
Well I wouldn't know.

Aspie-girl's niece
7:30pm
If ud have given it ur considered thoughts once I'd asked u too and u felt the same as me I would have felt that I had done what I felt was proper and you could have acted in whatever way you saw fit. Had u thought the photo was immoral would you still be acting so nonplussed as to why I had asked you what you thought of it????

Aspie-girl
7:31pm
K - there is nothing i could have done. She is not my daughter.

Aspie-girl's niece
7:40pm
You could of course  have ascertained if B had been influenced by it by discussing it with her. If you had seen my son walking dangerously near a cliff face you'd have done the same to me. You are clever enough to realise all this.
I was just concerned about B.
I was just concerned about B.
I was just concerned about B.
Do u really still not get it???

Aspie-girl
7:43pm
No I don't. Why would this picture adversely affect B?
And she's only just come home so I haven't been able to discuss it with her, if I thought there was anything to discuss.

Aspie-girl's niece
7:50pm
Omg because it is very popular.  She wants to be popular. I respect the fact that u know her well enough to decide whether she'd copy it. I was just asking you to consider it. This is not rocket science. I am not asking you to read my mind. I was trying to be nice. Even though u say that u don't understand I've heard u say that u like to wind ppl up on the internet etc. Do this to strangers if u like, not to ppl who have good intentions.

Aspie-girl
7:53pm
Okay - you did not actually tell me you were concerned about B - you just aksed me what my thoughts were on some random picture of one of B's friends.

Aspie-girl
7:55pm
This is the first you've said about your concerns that B might try to copy her - that thought did not even cross my mind. You asked me a simple question - what my thoughts were. I answered it. Clearly your thoughts were very different, but you did not share those thoughts with me.

Aspie-girl
7:58pm
Do me a favour - read back over the conversation and look at the words you used. The actual words - because those are the only things I get. I am not privy to the thoughts behind the words. I only know what you tell me, so LOOK at what you tell me, not what you think you've told me. I'm not being deliberately obtuse.

Aspie-girl's niece
8:05pm
No you are correct. I expected a level of common sense. I expected you to use your knowledge of children to know that they copy each other. In the future it may be wiser not to waste ppls time asking why they have stopped speaking to you because its prob just that by societal norms you are being really rude to them in the words that YOU used. That is all. I said what I felt I should to help my cousin.
I don't want to continue discussing.

Aspie-girl
8:09pm
She's not a child. At her age you were with Phil and I presume doing far more than posting arty shots on fb. Your profile pic shows far more flesh than hers does . I was not rude and I did not ask anyone why they had stopped speaking to me as I was not aware anyone had stopped speaking to me. And yet again, one more person doesn't get that the problem is not with me.

Aspie-girl's niece
8:26pm
The problem is only not with you if you don't mind dismissing ppls good intentions. That is a rude thing to do even if the literal words that you say are not. My intentions throughout were just to be a good cousin. I feel sorry that u can't appreciate that in ppl.

Aspie-girl
8:33pm
You assume that I knew what your intentions were. Honestly, I was just confused as to why you were messaging me at all, and what you wanted me to do. I wasn't dismissing you - I just didn't understand  what you meant by any of this. Getting irritated with me, or insulting my intelligence does no good. It's like getting irritated with a blind person, or implying they are stupid because they cannot see what you can see.  Now I realise you are not accustomed to dealing with someone with AS, but trust me when I say this conversation is very very familiar. Not the content, but the attitude of the NT, and the irritation, and the accusations of being deliberately obtuse, and the exasperation, and the assumption that I know exactly what you are talking about. Welcome to my world. THIS is why it is a disability.

Aspie-girl's niece
8:35pm
Nope. I'm saddened that even after I've just told u I was just trying to be nice you've not just said thanks.

Aspie-girl's Dad
8:35pm
Can we perhaps put all this down to a misunderstanding and be friends again?XX

The NT world: Some information to help you live in it #4

Different, not less

I'm stealing a Temple Grandin quote for the title of this blog post, because it is apt.

I realised today how learning I have a mental disability has made me more accepting of other people with mental disabilities, or mental differences maybe I should call them.

I had always felt exceedingly uncomfortable around people who were mentally different. All that flapping and involuntary noises and just being generally abnormal just made me feel all weird inside.

But then I learned that I have Asperger's, and I learned that a lot of what i do and what I consider perfectly normal, other people also consider weird. Things like flapping my hands when I get excited, striding along talking to myself, or talking to people who are not there (although I only do this when I'm along because, let's face it - that one IS pretty weird), not coping well with changes in plan, and almost panicking when things don't go right - all those things are not what most people do.

It really hit me today. I was walking my dog in the park and I fell in behind a couple of men. It was hard to tell from behind but one seemed to be in his late 40s and was walking calmly behind the other one, who was a good deal younger - probably late teens or early twenties. The first thing that struck me was that the younger man was touching everything. First he would stroke his hand along a park bench, then touch a tree, playing with a stray low branch, then he bent down and touched the grass. The second thing that struck me was that he was clearly mentally different - most people do not do this.

But instead of making me feel uncomfortable - it just made me think "Aw how sweet - he is clearly loving being out in the park and is experiencing everything in full measure." I mean, if it makes him HAPPY to be touching everything he sees, who am I to think it's weird?

Rules for living in an NT world #3

Rules for living in an NT world - #2

Problems of being a writer with Asperger's

Rules for living in an NT world - #1

You could just try a bit more...

Is it me? It must be me.

Being yourself...

Why Elsa from Frozen should be the Aspergers’ heroine

Elsa was born different. She has a power that her family don’t understand and are therefore afraid of. One day, while exercising her power, she accidentally hurts her little sister, Anna. The troll (so-called ‘love’ expert) responds by removing all memories of that power. Anna is not permitted to know her sister is different; she is never given a chance to understand her sister as she truly is. Her sister is stolen from her by people who believe they are acting in her best interests.

Subsequently, through terror of hurting her sister again, Elsa is forced to hide away, to hide her ability, her true self, to force down her feelings, any feelings. “Conceal. Don’t feel. Don’t let it show.”

How many of us feel we have been forced to hide our difference through the fear of hurting others, inadvertently? Forced to fit in, to pretend? Or just to hide away, alone, as Elsa does, if we can’t manage to fit in successfully, to pretend to be like everyone else?

And what was the result for both Anna, and Elsa? They each lost their sister, their loving relationship, through their parents’ crushing fear of Elsa’s difference.

At the coronation, the problem comes into full force. Elsa’s difference is revealed, and reviled. She escapes, to be alone and free, to finally be who she wants to be. Why do so many Aspies feel happiest alone? It is because we can finally be ourselves, not forced to try to fit in, not forced to be what they expect us to be.

And her power is beautiful and wonderful. She is creative, free, amazing. But yet again, the fear that was instilled in her long ago, threatens to ruin her world. Again, she hurts the person she loves the most, ironically through fear of hurting her. She pushes her away. I know that feeling; so hurt by people in the past, I have pushed away potential friends through fear of being hurt, or of hurting them.

And what is the answer, after all this? Love. Love is the answer. Elsa does not lose her powers, but she learns to control them because of the love of her sister, which was denied her all those years ago. Once she accepts that she is loved, and understands that love can undo any hurt that her difference has caused.

I have only experienced that sort of unconditional love from my children and my wonderful best friend. Sadly, my husband has yet to come to terms with my difference. He is still trying to get me to fit in, to be that good girl Elsa tried, and ultimately failed, to be. But to be yourself, and to be loved for being yourself...if we can achieve that in life, we have won.

“Let it go, let it go. Can’t hold it back any more. I don’t care what they’re going to say. Let the storm rage on. The cold never bothered me anyway.”

Friends

Is it an oxymoron to want to start a social group for adult Aspies?

We're not known for our socialising, but I thought it might be useful to have some sort of self-help group where we could share experiences and just have a good old moan. One of my oldest friends has contacted me on FB and said that because of me announcing my diagnosis, she started reading up about Asperger;s in order to understand me, and realised she also has a lot of the signs. So I sent her the link to the Aspie quiz and her results were almost identical to mine - there was only a single point different. It really opened my eyes as this friend is one of the last people I would have said would have AS. When I said this, she just said "I'm a good actress". How many others of us are there out there struggling to cope, alone?

I asked my therapist if there was anything and she said no. She has been wanting to set something up but she is run off her feet.

I looked online, and still nothing.

I did find an organisation called Blackpool Tiggers which runs activities for children and young people with autism and Asperger's, but what about us oldies?

So I emailed Blackpool Tiggers and made my suggestion. Perhaps they can help, or advertise for us, or even start something themselves. I would be happy to organise it.

If there is anyone else in Blackpool or the surrounding areas with Asperger's reading this and you might like to join a self-help group, feel free to comment.

I'm thinking of starting a FB group also.

Update on the house: we went to see it on Friday. It is perfect - exactly what we need. There are only a couple of tiny snags - the garden is small and so is the dining area. But the living room is lovely and big and all the bedrooms are a good size. Often in new builds the bedrooms are tiny, but these are not. The room I'd have as my office is big too, so I can put all my crap in there, my desk/computer, bookcases, digital piano, even my treadmill, so the downstairs will be nice and uncluttered. There's a good big utility room with a back door I can put a cat flap in so the animals can go in there to sleep at night, and it has a tiled floor so if Minnie has any little accidents they are easily cleaned up!

There were two other viewers that same afternoon and when I rang the agents they said they would wait till everyone had viewed it, so if there were multiple applications, the LL would decide who got it. But I rang up this morning and so far they have only had my application, so fingers crossed!!

Friends - The Rembrandts

The next step

"So, what happened next?" I hear screaming desperately across t'interweb from my hordes of rabid readers.

Well, over the next few months I researched Asperger's, became more convinced I had it and tried to work out what it would mean for our marriage.

We continued to argue . My husband threatened to throw me out on a fairly regular basis, most notably on Christmas Eve. After exhausting all the strategies in my limited capabilities to try to sort out our issues, eventually I would just shut down whenever it looked like another one was looming. The more he railed at me, the more Vulcan I became. If I didn't feel anything, it couldn't hurt me. But then the less response he got, the more angry he became. I remember one time curling up in a little ball on the sofa, with my hands over my ears so I couldn't hear him. I stayed like that till he went away in disgust.

I thought about leaving on a regular basis. Looking at houses to rent on the internet soothed me.

We tried marriage counselling. I didn't like the counsellor. I remember distinctly when I told her I thought I had Asperger's she laughed at me. Then she proceeded to talk down to me, asking me if I understood what she meant when she said xyz. Of course I did - I might be autistic, but I'm not stupid.

However, I did try to apply what she told us to do. That backfired when I got told I was applying it far too literally "As you always do." Well, how else was I supposed to apply it? If she tells us to do something, we're to do that, not something else loosely derived from it.

My husband continued to deny that I might have AS. I remember him once saying to me "You could be normal if you tried, you just can't be arsed."

In May 2012 I decided I couldn't bear it any longer. There were several incidents one after another that made me realise I could no longer live with him. He went through all the phases; pretending he didn't care, moping around like a lost puppy, and eventually, the day before I was due to move out he asked me if he got help for his anger issues, would I reconsider?

He had continued going for counselling on his own after I had said I was leaving. One thing the counsellor had suggested, presumably after he had told her I was leaving, was that maybe we could continue our relationship, but in separate houses. When he suggested this, I poo-pooed it, thinking it was a ridiculous idea. But as I gave it more thought, I thought it might actually work. We could go back to the way we were when we were still dating, before we moved in together.

We had a long talk before I moved out. I stressed that if we did this, we were still together, still in a relationship, still married - with ALL that implies, including fidelity. He seemed quite surprised - I think he thought that I was moving out so I could fool around - but he agreed.

So, in June 2012 I moved out.

Next Step - Big Time Rush

Let's start at the very beginning

In October 2011, after thirty-nine years of not feeling quite normal, I began to realise I might have Asperger's Syndrome.

Sometimes I feel normal. When I am at home in my comfort zone, with my children, I feel normal and happy.

But I hate social situations, dislike women, and I can only relate to men sexually. I used to work with a group of men, Most of them hated me for being clever and the ones that didn't, I flirted with. I don't understand people who don't say things that are not true, and not being believed frustrates me beyond all measure.

What brought me to this conclusion began this way: One night my husband and I had a massive huge argument. He had mistaken my reaction to something he had said and thought I was "being funny" with him, when in fact I wasn't. I tried to persuade him, but he refused to accept it, and his refusal to accept the truth sent me flying into a huge rage with him. I threw things at him and insulted him and screamed at him to get out and swore at him.

The second he left the room I calmed down instantly. Instantly. Because he had finally done what I wanted - left me on my own.

But I realised that this behaviour was not normal. I began looking online for some kind of anger management techniques to help me deal with my outbursts.

When I was younger I used to fly into rages. Once, when I was in my early 20s, I was working with a bunch of people who thought it was hugely funny to play practical jokes on people. This guy one time emptied a fire extinguisher all over me, while his friends dashed outside and held the door shut so I couldn't escape. When it was empty, he dropped it and laughed at me. I was so furious, I picked it up and threw it at his head with all my strength. He turned to avoid it, and it hit his back instead of his head, cracking three ribs.

Another time I almost threw a hammer at a boyfriend because he had offered to help me with something. Luckily, at the last second, something in my brain kicked in and said "YOU CANNOT THROW HAMMERS AT PEOPLE!" and I ended up throwing it at the floor instead.

The hammer incident scared me so much that I decided from that point on to seriously try to control my temper. Mostly I did. I learned breathing techniques, and took herbal remedies to stay calm.

I met my husband in November 2008 at the age of 36. We got engaged the following September, and I moved in with him in June 2010, a month before the wedding. I had never lived with anyone before, apart from my children, and it was interesting to say the least. I found it very difficult and I found myself losing my temper with him a lot.

So, in looking into anger management, I found a page which listed causes of anger outbursts. One of these was Asperger's Syndrome. I had heard of it, but all I knew about it was the character of Karla Bentham in Waterloo Road, who had frequent meltdowns. I had watched it, but not identified with her in the slightest. However, the more I read about this Asperger's Syndrome, the more I felt "This is me!" I found a link to an Aspie test, which said:

Your Aspie score: 148 of 200
Your neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 58 of 200
You are very likely an Aspie

I went downstairs and we had a very calm talk and I told him what I suspected. He said that if that was really what I thought I should go to my GP and get a proper diagnosis.

It affects us mostly when we argue - I have frequently told my husband that I don't know "the script" - The things I say are "wrong" somehow and I don't know what it is I am SUPPOSED to say so I lapse into confused silence, which annoys him even more.

It also affects my parenting. I have two girls, aged 12 and 5. I love my children deeply but my older daughter sometimes complains that I don't show her any sympathy when she is hurt or upset. It isn't that I don't feel sympathy and feel bad for her, I just don't know what to say. And that makes me feel bad because I am making her feel bad.

The thought of having AS was scary - I didn't want to have a mental illness, but it was almost a relief at the same time - that there was a reason I am the way I am - I'm not just a callous bitch with no friends.

Let's Start At the Very Beginning (Do Re Mi) - Julie Andrews